Canada has been a world leader in figure skating for decades, bringing world championship and Olympic medals home dozens of times across many decades. Newcomers have reshaped Canadian figure skating, from coaches, skaters, choreographers, and equipment makers. We speak with Emery Leger, longtime coach and Skate Canada archivist, and Elizabeth Knebli, whose parents were skate-makers to the stars, including Barbara Ann Scott, Toller Cranston, Brian Orser and Paul Martini and Barbara Underhill.
https://pier21.ca/blog/steve-schwinghamer/a-reflection-on-curating-perfect-landings
Countless Journeys, Season 7
Episode #3
INTRO:
Being a Northern nation, Canada’s contributions to winter sports has been immense.
Hockey, curling, figure skating, skiing.
We have produced world champions in all categories decade after decade.
But it’s hard to gauge how different that record might be without the influence and huge contribution of immigrants to those sports.
On this episode of Countless Journeys, we take a closer look at figure skating, and some of the people who have helped Canada achieve world excellence.
We’ll hear about some of the skaters who immigrated to Canada who went on to claim world championships and Olympic gold.
And we’ll also learn more about the influence of coaches who made Canada their home:
CLIP EMERY LEGER:
Gus Lucci, top technical coaches for sure in jumping, spinning. There was also Otto Gold who came to Canada, and he taught Barbara Ann Scott.
Ellen Burka came over with two daughters from Holland. A very famous coach. Top coach.
TP: As well, Elizabeth Knebli, daughter of skate-maker-to-the-stars John Knebli, brings us her family’s story.
ELIZABETH KNEBLI:
My father, when he started this, found out that he could not buy leather that would stand up to the sort of wear and tear of a skater.
So he worked for a couple of years with a tannery until they actually developed a leather that would stand up to what was needed by a skater.
TP: That’s up next, on Countless Journeys.
FADE MUSIC
Welcome to Countless Journeys from the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21. I’m Tina Pittaway.
Emery Leger is a longtime figure skating coach, an archivist for Skate Canada and a lifelong skater since he was a kid growing up in Moncton, New Brunswick.
Over the course of more than fifty years, Emery has seen the changes in styles and influences in figure skating, and has worked closely with many of the leaders in the field.
I spoke with Emery recently about the role immigration has played in fostering Canada’s success, and about some of the personalities behind what we see on the ice.
And I began our conversation with asking Emery about what drew him to skating as a youngster.
TAKE INVU
EL: Skating has been my whole life since the age of 10. I used to play hockey and uh, the girls in the neighborhood would go to the Figure Skating Club in Moncton, New Brunswick. And, uh, I followed and I was 10 years old. And I liked it, and it became a passion and I've done it since the age of 10. And I’m going to be 75 and I'm still into it.
TP: That's, that's amazing. So, you have seen quite a long arc of Canadian figure skating.
EL: Absolutely, yes.
TP: Now what would you say stands out as far as the impact of immigration on figure skating?
EL: There were a lot of fine skaters that came to live in Canada and there were very good coaches.
A lot of them if name people like Gus Lussi, Otto Gold, Helmut May, uh, Alex Balish, Eva Vasak all came to Canada. They all got into skating, into figure skating clubs and started training our Canadian athletes.
And of course, a lot of figure skaters train in different countries back and forth with different coaches. So, a lot of these immigrants became our top coaches or choreographers.
They, they got the sport really moving and developed to where we're one of the leaders in the world today.
TP: Would it be mostly because we're a northern country and a lot of these folks come from other northern nations.
EL: A lot of them, it was after the war, uh, there was work in our country.
Ellen Burka came over with two daughters from Holland. And then she started coaching skating in Toronto and became a very famous coach, top coach.
Her daughter was world champion and a bronze Olympic medalist. Her daughter Petra. And then her daughter Astra skated also and became an architect and a film producer.
TP: Hers is a dark story in terms of her background too as a, as a survivor of, of the, the Nazis.
EL: Yes, there is. Her daughter Astra produced a film on her mom. She survived because she told them that she was a figure skater. And they would get her to perform and entertain the Nazis. Uh, so that way she was saved from going to the camps - to the camp.
TP: That is just that, that is unimaginable. You talked a little bit about her training Petra. Who else might we would be familiar with? Toller Cranston, I think is one.
EL: Yes Toller came to see her in Toronto. Uh, I think he wanted to stop skating.
He was discouraged, down and he wanted to quit skating. And she goes, no, no, no, no, no. She brought him to Toronto and started work, you know. Letting him skate the way he wanted to skate and, feel he was more like a contemporary dancer skater on ice. Okay. And she, she let him, uh, develop that style.
TP: Very theatrical.
EL: Correct. Very like a dancer. Yeah. Contemporary dancer and, uh, very, very theatrical. Of course, he's a, a famous painter also, so he was very artistic. And then Mrs. Burka, of course let him - with music and style and, and things - let him be who he wanted to be and not have him skate as a toy soldier.
And then of course, Mrs. Burka is the coach who developed Theater on Ice where she would you know, bring the skaters on and put a piece of music and let them interpret it the way she or, or they wanted to interpret it. Mm-hmm. So, they, they developed a, a lot more like ballet styles, contemporary dance styles, and they brought it all onto the ice and, you know.
Men skate the way they do now because of Toller.
TP: That’s incredible. I had no idea. So, prior to that, it would've been much more kind of cookie cutter, but highly skilled? Or, or how, how would you describe it prior to this?
EL: Well, men skaters were highly skilled. Uh, the only thing is, is they had to skate with, be very careful with their arms.
And they were, it was more military.
TP: Oh, okay.
EL: They were dressed military, more like a suit shirt and tie, um, one piece suit. And everything was, you know, they had to be very careful with their arms, uh, not, not over their heads and do nothing that looked like dance or ballet. More like a, I call it a toy soldier, but more like, uh, yes, very masculine.
TP: OK. Can you talk to me a little bit about some of those earlier stars? You mentioned Petra Burka, daughter of Ellen.
There was also the brother and sister team, the Jelyniks.
EL: Yes, Maria and Otto Jelynik, uh, they were from Prague and they came to Canada and they trained here in Canada with Marg and Bruce Highland in Toronto. And, then they were allowed to go back and compete in Prague. They got permission to go back into the country.
They competed and then they won the World Pair Championships when they went, uh, back to Prague.
TP: Because that would've been, they would've been under communism?
EL: Correct.
TP: Okay. So, did they, did they defect to Canada?
EL: They defected and came to Canada. The father had a, a, a cork company, I believe. And they came to Canada. They started skating. Became, world champs, were in the Olympics, they starred in Ice Capades and they had a great, great career.
TP: Now, the solo skaters as well, I'm thinking of second generation, like the Patrick Chan and Elvis Stojko.
They're children of immigrants. What can you tell me about, about their paths?
EL: Well Patrick and Elvis were two superb competitors, skaters. Patrick, his parents are from Hong Kong. Uh, they lived in Ottawa and then he moved to Toronto to train with Osborn Colson.
And you know, Patrick won many world titles and a very great skater. And he's now married to a figure skating coach. And, he has one or two children. Elvis, of course, his mom and dad. I believe it was Slovenia.
TP: Yes his father is from Slovenia and his mother is Hungarian.
EL: Yes, they came over, Elvis’s dad was an opera singer also. We, we all know Elvis as a world champion, Olympic medalist.
TP: His style of skating was very athletic, wasn't it?
EL: It was. He was like he loved quads and he did it his way. He didn't want to be, you know, arms all over the place. He didn't want to be a Toller Cranston, But he was very technical and you could always count on him. He always skated, he never made mistakes. He was a real fierce competitor. So, he did so well for Canada, of course, at Worlds and Olympics.
And he's married to a Mexican who is also a figure skater. And they're still performing. Matter of fact, they'll be starring this year Elvis is in Stars on Ice.
TP: Can you talk to me a little bit about the technology. The skates obviously are the biggest, I guess if you want to call it technology, they're essential. And I understand there was quite a star skate maker.
EL: Yes. John Knebli was the skate maker in Canada, for the stars for everybody. Not only stars. He made boots for everybody.
I had Kneblis they, they were leather. Uh, and you could really, they were custom made for your feet. Leather. And, um, you could, uh, move in them, you know. Like the skates of today to do all those quads and triples are really solid. Like, they're like wooden blocks.
Well Mr. Knebli’s skates were made for your foot, uh, and you could do a lot of things. But we weren't doing quads in those days. We were doing Triples, doubles, triples.
But he made boots for Toller. You name it, he made boots for everybody in Canada.
TP: And where was he based?
EL: In Toronto.
TP: Okay. And, and he, he came from where?
EL: Originally from Hungary. And his wife helped him. Mrs. Knebli used to help him.
TP: He came through Pier 21, I think.
EL : Yes, yes, they did. And, uh, they have a daughter, Elizabeth, and a lot of his skates are at the Bata Shoe Museum in Toronto.
Toller’s sister, Philippa Baron, just bought, uh, he had made Toller a pair of skates, and Toller never picked them up. So, um, Toller’s sister, who's continuing Toller’s legacy, was able to get them from Elizabeth Knebli. They had never been worn, and they had them and they had the patterns of his feet and his boots.
So at least they're in the right hands.
TP: That's wonderful. I know you've spoken a little bit about the impact of Ellen Burka, but were there other coaches that would've had an impact on the kind of skating that we see or have seen on the ice?
EL: For sure. If we go back, you had people like Gus Lussi, who taught in Canada and also ended up in Lake Placid. Top technical coach for sure in jumping, spinning.
TP: Born in Switzerland.
EL. Yes. There was also Otto Gold who, uh, came to Canada and he taught Barbara Ann Scott.
Otto Gold was really well known for his compulsory figures. Uh, Gus Lussi, I remember seeing him working. He had a little studio in Lake Placid and um, you'd go in there and he'd make you spin to death - with him it was all rotation.
If your core was really strong and you knew how to rotate then you were able to do all these jumps consistently because your core was strong enough and you had to learn how to spin like a top. Like now they do quads well they go to jump class, they work on harnesses that teach him how to spin quicker. So those were two fine ones.
Then there was Hellmut May who came to Canada. The first coach in Moncton, New Brunswick in 1953 was from Austria. Uh, he only stayed in Moncton one year, and then he went out to Vancouver and he taught at the Kerrisdale Club for a long, long time.
And then he brought in Alex Balish to Moncton after that, from Austria also.
So, there's oodles and oodles of them. Like dance, Gene Westwood, came over from England and who taught ice dance in Vancouver. All these great people all coached in Canada, you know, they all produced great skaters.
TP: I know when it's around Olympic time, you, you sometimes see news stories about people trying to get, qualified and accepted in certain countries and, to, to skate for them. But Canada is quite, quite open as far as sports and allowing people to come through at that level and work within the country, aren't they?
EL: Yes, exactly. Well, that happens a lot now in skating, especially in pairs and in dance. No matter where you're from, you have to have become a Canadian citizen. So, you, you come here, you train, you apply for your citizenship, and then you go compete.
For example, the uh, French couple who just won ice dance, he's from France, but she's from Montreal. But now, she's able to compete for France because she got citizenship for France. So she and him are representing France. Now you look Deanna and her partner who are in pair skating for Canada while he's from, Quebec, but she came over from the States so she would've had to have gotten her Canadian citizenship. But that happens if you go into ice dancing or pairs. And they, they'll tell you, uh, they're all from different countries.
The, the men will be from one country, the ladies from another country, they get together and they're representing one of those countries, right? So, this happens a lot. So, it just goes on and on and on with that because you, you try to find the right partner that is a good match for you, then you represent the country and get your citizenship and all of that.
TP: There’s so much there. What would you say skating has brought to your life that, that has enriched it and, and, and, and, and why has it held you for, uh, the whole course of your life?
EL: I would say for me I loved it, of course and I never, never stopped skating, even though I was bullied a little bit at the beginning. I didn't care. I was gonna skate and that was it. And I skated.
I've done everything in the sport and luckily, I became the archivist at Skate Canada. And there I took care of all the Hall of Famers. I got to know all these icons, great skaters and great people so that was the last part of my career.
It’s a big family, it really is a huge family, and of course they all want everybody to learn how to skate, so they're gonna welcome you no matter what level they're at, and try to guide you so you can go learn how to skate and, uh, also buy good equipment.
Nobody has weak ankles. They just have bad skates.
TP: That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Emery.
EL: You're welcome. It's been my pleasure.
MUSIC BRIDGE
TP: As Emery mentioned, Hungarian-born John Knebli was a skate-maker to the stars. Barbara Ann Scott wore a pair of his custom-made skates when she won Olympic gold in 1948.
Other skating luminaries who wore Kneblis include Toller Cranston, Brian Orser and Paul Martini & Barbara Underhill.
Elizabeth Knebli worked in the family business until she headed off to university as a young woman.
And she spoke with me about her parents’ journey to Canada in the 1930s, and how their business came to be.
TAKE AUDIO
My name is Elizabeth Knebli, and I'm the daughter of John and Elizabeth Knebli. John was born in a little town called Tasnad, that's T-A-S-N-A-D, which is now in Romania. Used to be in Hungary. He came to Canada I think in 1930, so he was 26 years old. He had apprenticed as a master craftsman in orthopedic shoemaking.
The old days where you sat beside the master and for three or four or five years and you watched and learned what he did, and eventually he would give you things to do to see how you were progressing.
So that really helped in his career, if I can put it that way, later on.
And the apprenticeship, he would study not only shoemaking, but the properties of tanning leather, podiatry, kinetics, et cetera.
So, it was a well-rounded, not only training, but experience that he could use.
And, uh, so it's 1930. The first World War has just finished. And he just wanted to leave. He saw no real future where he was in this little town and he had the opportunity to come to Canada, and he did. He came through Pier 21 and then directly, they, they shipped him off to, uh, to Delhi, probably about a hundred miles or so west of Toronto.
And when he got here, they put him out to, um, harvest tobacco in Delhi because he came from a farm, uh, not withstanding that he had, his credentials as a shoemaker.
So he, uh, lived and worked in Delhi, I think for a year or two, and then came to Toronto and started to look for work as a, uh, a shoemaker.
When he came to Toronto, he couldn't really find anything in the shoe line, if I can put it that way. He ended up as a milkman delivering milk, and he and a friend of his started a dairy called the Zelanka dairy. And so, he, he owned a part of this dairy and thought, well, I guess I'm going to be a dairyman rather than a shoemaker.
And in 1938 he went back to, uh, Tasnad, to the village and basically said to my mother, there's a war coming. Do you want to stay here or do you want to come to Canada? So that's when my mother immigrated in 1938.
They started the business in 1944. My father, uh, started to make orthopedic children's shoes.
So, he was working through the hospitals and uh, I know one day he said that there was some kind of a kerfuffle on, uh, this was Bay Street. And a policeman came in and talked to him and started to look around saying, what, what do you do, et cetera. So, my father started to make shoes for policemen.
In 1948, a teacher from the Granite Club came and said, I've heard that you make shoes. And I have a young man here who needs skating boots. And my father said I know nothing about skating. And this uh, teacher said, well, come to the rink, and look at what people do. Look at what my student does, and he has bunions, et cetera, et cetera. He needs orthopedic shoes. He needs custom made shoes.
So my father did, and that was the beginning of, um, well, the, the rest of his life.
They're made to everyone's specific foot. And, uh, my father had these wooden lasts. You know, this is what you build the shoe around. And if you had a bunion or a corn or something, he would put a piece of leather, um, rub it down. Fashion it so that the last looked exactly like the foot of the person, and then he would build the shoe around that.
So, it was really custom made. If you had a thin, um, heel, it, you know, he would shave down the last so that it would be the size of the heel. So, you would put your feet in the boots and it would be like slippers.
Gosh, there's a very long list starting with uh, Charles Snelling, who, um, got gold five times as a Canadian 1952. Karen Magnusson, Peggy Fleming, Sandra Bezic. Uh, Bob Paul and Barbara Wagner, and I'll come back to Barbara Wagner, Ken and Paulette Ormsby, Don Jackson, Sandra and Val Bezec, Dawn Knight, Petra Burka, Toller Cranston, Vaughn Taylor, Brian Orser, Paul Martini, and Barbara Underhill. Gary Bacon and Gina Goddard, and there's, uh, a lot of other, um, people, a lot from Japan.
Once, once he started this, he, he did become a fan. 'cause I mean, in, in Hungary there was no such thing as ice skating, not, not in the village, and it didn't get that cold, et cetera. So, this was something totally new to, well, both him and my mother.
She, uh, trained as a master craftsman, dressmaker and tailor. So, she was the one that sewed all of the, the uppers in the boots.
Uh, after a while we got another lady, uh, to work with us that would help with the, uh, with the sewing because it's a very specific. You can imagine you're, you're, um, sewing together two pieces of leather and a piece of canvas in between.
The leather was really important. My father, when he started this, found out that he could not buy leather that would stand up to the sort of wear and tear of a skater.
And also, the fact that the skates get wet. Uh, both on the outside and the inside. So, he, uh, he worked, I think for a couple of years with a tannery until they actually developed a leather that would stand up to what was needed by a, by a skater. And the fact that it would, the, uh, the boot would dry out but not dry up, if I can make the difference.
And also, he got them to make a very special, uh, leather for the soul that was also designed to withstand the cold and the damp, et cetera.
I mean, the interesting thing is, you know, talking about immigration, we would go to Italy and Spain and Portugal on, um, I say recruiting missions because we couldn't find people in Canada at the time who had been trained to do the fine work that, that it was necessary to make the boots.
So it was, it was interesting going to the, those three countries in particular to, uh, to get workmen.
Dad did all of the, uh, if I could say the planning for the shoes and mom did the the sewing and then it went back to dad and the workman to actually put the, um, the uppers. You know, the leather uppers and they would stretch it around the wooden lasts and then they would sew up the sole to the, to the uppers.
So, it was a sort of a back and forth thing. And then when they finished, it would come back to my mother to totally clean up the boots and get them ready for, uh, sending, and then it came to me and I was the one that wrapped them all up and, and took them to the post office.
I must tell you the story about Barbara Wagner. Bob Paul and Barbara Wagner. They were, uh, world champions, the late fifties. And they won Olympic gold in 60. Um, Barbara was quite short. And in those days, the boots were quite tall, so they came to almost midcalf. And as my father said, on short people, it would make you look short and stumpy.
So, what he did was he cut down the boots. They didn't go as high, you know. Also, it was the fashion in those days to have skating boots look sort of like, um, street shoes, which had pointy toes in that. And my father said, this is ridiculous. Um, you don't need pointy toes. You need your, your toes to be able to spread because when you land a jump, you’ve got to have, you've got to have the room for your, uh, feet to expand, to take that force. Anyway, long story short, he, uh, he made these, uh, short boots and, um, they were a hit. And from then on, I think most of, most other manufacturers did the same thing. They, uh, they cut down the boots and, and made them shorter.
There, there is a, uh, a story that dad made Brian, Brian Orser, a pair of boots, and, uh, put two gold coins in the boots. And I believe he never told me where he put them, but I assume that they were in the heels. And my father said, you know, no, no matter what you do in this competition, you'll always be skating on gold.
So he was, uh, he was what, 93 when he died in ‘97. And, uh, the story was that, uh, he, um. He was putting on blades, on somebody's boots at at the house, and he was getting tired, and he said to my mother, well, I think I'm going to bed. And then he said to her, goodnight. Goodnight. Good. Goodbye, goodbye. And kissed her goodnight.
And she went up because she used to tuck him in and uh, in bed. He said the same thing, you know. Goodnight. Goodnight. Goodbye. Goodbye. And he died in his sleep that night.
TP: Elizabeth’s mother Elizabeth, lived to be 101.
TP: In 2016, the Museum showcased many of the people mentioned in this episode in an exhibit entitled Perfect Landings.
To read more about the exhibit and some of the skaters and coaches mentioned, see the link in our show notes, or visit pier21.ca and search for Perfect Landings.
And if you aren’t already following us on your favourite podcast app, be sure to hit follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode.
MUSIC
Thanks for listening to Countless Journeys, brought to you by the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21 at the Halifax Seaport. This season of Countless Journeys is presented by Air Canada, Canada's airline for welcoming newcomers home.
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