Growing up, celebrated chef and entrepreneur Vikram Vij wanted to be an actor, but his business-minded father had other ideas. At nineteen, Vij left India for Austria, where he studied hotel management, and landed his first restaurant job at the famed Michelin-starred Post-Stuben restaurant. It was there that a chance encounter with the head of CP Hotels led to a job offer at the Banff Springs Hotel. And so began Vikram Vij’s life in his adopted country of Canada. “I fell in love with Canada. I fell in love with Banff. And I always tell people I come from one of the largest democracies in the world called India, but I actually live in the best democracy in the world called Canada,” Vij says. From Banff, it was on to Vancouver, where Vij would build a network of restaurants with his former wife and business partner Meeru Dhalwala, and satisfy the entertainer in his soul with appearances on shows like Dragons’ Den, Top Chef Canada and Recipe to Riches. Countless Journeys is brought to you by the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21, located at the Halifax Seaport.
[00:00:00] Tina Pittaway: When it comes to cultural ambassadors, chefs are in a category all their own. Their creations go beyond feeding people. They can open up new ways of thinking about food that mix in the old with the new and challenge preconceived ideas of what someone from a specific background is supposed to cook.
[00:00:23] Celebrated Vancouver Chef Vicram Vij joins me on this episode of Countless Journeys to share his story of rebellion and triumph in his decades long mission to express himself through food. A story that includes a chance encounter in Austria that set him on his way to Canada back in 1989.
[00:00:43] Vikram Vij: And I was like, oh my God, I have to go. This is a calling. This is a calling from God. I gotta take this chance.
[00:00:50] Tina Pittaway: And more than 30 years later, that chance it seems has paid off. Vicram Vij credits Canada with providing an environment for newcomers like him to thrive.
[00:01:00] Vikram Vij: And I always tell people I come from one of the largest democracies in the world called India, but I actually live in the best democracy in the world call Canada.
[00:01:11] Tina Pittaway: Our conversation is up next.
[00:01:13] MONTAGE: Countless journeys. All of our chefs represent either our grandmothers or our mothers or our aunts, or the land we come from, or the place we grew up in, and we put ourselves on the plate.
[00:01:35] It was my home - was everything. People came in and wanted to talk to me, and whenever they came in to buy a loaf of bread, they had to make sure that I knew that they bought a loaf of bread and sat down and wanted to talk to me.
[00:01:50] It was Portuguese women coming here to build a better life, but also to help build Canada.
[00:01:55] It, it's, it's scary to make that change. Our, our change was absolute. There was no going back, so it was a, a brave thing for my parents to do.
[00:02:05] Instead of feeling torn between my two realities, I decided to feel happy wherever I am.
[00:02:22] Music ENDS
[00:02:24] Welcome to Countless Journeys from the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21 at the Halifax Seaport. I'm Tina Pittway and I'm delighted to bring you my recent conversation with Chef Vikram Vij, whose staying power at the top of the restaurant industry is almost unmatched. Last year, his eponymous restaurant V,ij which he's run with his former wife, Meeru since 1995, was awarded a Michelin Bib Gourmand Award. Coming from a long line of Indian entrepreneurs, Vij is also a former Dragon on CBC TV's Dragons' Den where he shared his head for business with budding entrepreneurs.
[00:03:03] I spoke with Vikkram from his restaurant Vij earlier this spring.
[00:03:09] Now no one reaches, uh, the levels of success as a chef and a businessman without a genuine love of, of food. What is it about feeding people that, that you love so much?
[00:03:21] Vikram Vij: Well, you know, there's two reasons to become a chef. Well, there's many reasons to become a chef, but one of them is to bring awareness to the cuisine and the culture of the country that you have left behind. And I've always believed that as chefs, you know, your background of who you are as a human being, where you came from, where you were uprooted from, or where you were grafted to, you must be somebody who is willing to represent themselves. And especially as an immigrant, I feel that all of our chefs represent either our grandmothers or our mothers or our aunts or the land we come from or the place we grew up in. And we put ourselves on the plate. And that's the passion, um, that we all, uh, have.
[00:04:08] So we are not just cooks, we are. We are chefs. We are artists. The love, uh, the love of the country, love of where we came from.
[00:04:16] Tina Pittaway: Now, lots of cultures of course, love and celebrate food, but I think, uh, I would put India in, in the top tier of, of countries that have a real devotion. Uh, and it's so much a part of the fabric of, of Indian life. What are some of your formative memories, I guess, around food in, in your earlier years?
[00:04:36] Vikram Vij: Well, food, you know, you, we grew up eating food in a sense that as soon as we finished breakfast, my grandmother would start preparing for lunch, and then as we finished lunch, she would prepare for an early afternoon snack and then the evening snack, and then food was part of it because, food was when you gathered around and you spoke to everybody.
[00:04:56] So you spoke to your grandmothers, you spoke to your aunts, you spoke to your uncles, and you know, you, you, you, you, it was a part of getting together to eat and have a conversation. It was not just food, it was bringing people together. And, um, I loved, you know, every aspect of it. But I also loved the street foods of India.
[00:05:15] I mean, I also loved, you know, just walking around and spending all of my pocket money on, uh, street foods of India because, uh, I just loved eating. My sister on the other hand was a big miser. She never ate outside. She, she still doesn't like to eat outside. And, you know, she, she has a really hard time, uh, spending money on food.
[00:05:37] Whereas I had no problems. I could go and spend half all my pocket money and just eating on the streets of, uh, of India.
[00:05:45] Tina Pittaway: Now your, your path to becoming a chef and, and an entrepreneur has a lot of twists and turns, like, like most people's stories. Uh, but you say in your memoir that that fate played a big role, uh, as did your parents. Can you talk a bit about their influence in your career?
[00:06:03] Vikram Vij: So I actually never, you know, I had no idea of becoming a chef. I didn't want to be, I grew up, uh, I actually wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be a Bollywood actor. And, uh, you know, that's what I was aspiring to do. I loved stage, I loved drama. I loved people I loved.
[00:06:21] Everything about it. And my father hated all of that stuff. He, he never would watch television. He had no interest in music. He was a strict business person, and that's what he wanted to do. All he wanted to do was make money and, and be, uh, successful. So I, I think I was 16 or 17, you know, he kind of sat me down and said, You know what, I, I don't want you to become an actor.
[00:06:43] And I said, why? And, you know, we had a huge fight and, and discussion about it, but you know, at that time, you live under the roof of your father, so if you don't listen to him, he's not gonna feed you. So, or, or pay for your education or, or do anything. So I had to basically bite that bullet. And, uh, uh, I was 19 by this time of, of fighting with him, and I was tired.
[00:07:06] And, uh, he finally said, okay, well, where do you want? What do you wanna do? And I said, well, I, I wanna go and study hotel management and go somewhere else. But it was not the fact that I was gonna become a chef. It was because of the fact that I just wanted to get the hell out of India at that time because a India was going through so much turmoil.
[00:07:27] And you know, I, I was living with a father who was extremely strict. I, I was like the spring that was, you know, held quietly for a while and then, I just needed to just spring and sprung, you know, did I ever sprung and sprung in Austria and did ev everything that, uh, he was against, which was like smoking and drinking and you know, having lots of sex and all that stuff.
[00:07:51] So it was very open that way. I was just completely a free bird. I did what I wanted to do and. He was, uh, no, not very, very happy about it. But then, you know, obviously he was paying for my education. It was a three year program and we finished school and I finished well in school. And then, um, decided to, uh, pursue the career of, uh, being a chef.
[00:08:15] Tina Pittaway: When you were in Austria, uh, you, you made one very important dish, that led to your, uh, your move to Banff. Can you tell me about that dish and who it was for?
[00:08:27] Vikram Vij: Well, so it was not that I made the dish, it was the fact that, um, I was the only Indian in the kitchen, so I was the brown guy. All the other chefs were you know, French and Italian and, and, and European and Swiss and basically white men, you know, it was a boys club, white men, boys club, and I was the only brown guy. So, you know, anything that, that they would make fun of, I wasn't allowed to make, uh, main courses. They would say things like, oh, you're the Best East Indian chef we have, but it's because I was the only East Indian chef in the kitchen, you know.
[00:09:02] So there was a lot of racism, there was a lot of prejudice, and I wasn't allowed to make, uh, beef steaks or beef jus because they would make fun of the fact that I was a Hindu and why would I be making beef, or how would I know how to make a steak?
[00:09:16] And things like that. So there was a lot of prejudice against it. So I was only allowed to make schnitzel, which was, uh, staff meals or salads, and that was my side. But then one day this gentleman walks in, he was from Czech Republic and I didn't know this, this I know afterwards, uh, he comes into the restaurant and he has gone skiing and he's very tired and, um, you know, he wants to eat something spicy, comfort food.
[00:09:42] So there was a Hungarian Goulash soup that we had in the kitchen, but he wanted even spicier than that. So then the, the chef at the time said, well, you're brown, you're Indian. You should know how to make something spicy. This guy needs something spicy, so spice it up. So I took this goulash soup and basically added some onions and ginger and garlic and, you know, made it a little spicy beef stew style curry with a little of rice.
[00:10:06] And we served it to him. I mean, it didn't take that long to make it, but. You know, it was fine. So I served it to him and then he asked who had made the soup. And I was asked to come out and I thought I was gonna get fired because I had spiced the food up so much. And he looked at me and he says, where was I from?
[00:10:24] And I said, I'm from India and you know, I speak German fluently. And he said, oh, you know, boys, like you should come to Canada. Canada is a great country. It's a country of immigrants. It's a country that will allow you to be who you are and be successful.
[00:10:38] And you have to understand every six months I had to leave the country of Austria.
[00:10:43] Because I wasn't allowed to work in, in Austria for more than six months, so I would have to leave and go to another country and work and you know, so this time I finally said, okay, here's my resume. And I wrote to him in German, but I didn't know who he was. And then I realized he was the general manager of the Banff Springs Hotel, like one of the most iconic hotels in Canada.
[00:11:07] And he was the general manager of it. Not only was that he was the, he was the GM of at that time, the Canadian Pacific Hotels. And uh, sure enough, few weeks later, I think literally six weeks later, I get an envelope with a one-way ticket and a visa to come to Canada. And I was like, oh my God, I have to go. This is a calling. This is a calling from God. I gotta take this chance because, He had sent me a six month visa and he knew that as soon as I came to Banff Springs Hotel, he knew as soon as I came and saw that beautiful, gorgeous building and the space and everything else, that I would fall in love with this country.
[00:11:52] And that's exactly what happened. I fell in love with Canada. I fell in love with Banff. And uh, after a few years, you know, I came to Vancouver and I feel so humbled and blessed, and I always tell people I come from one of the largest democracies in the world called India, but I actually live in the best democracy in the world called Canada.
[00:12:17] Tina Pittaway: That's an incredible story. We don't know who will meet that, will do that. Now, eventually you moved to Vancouver. Uh, you were there for a time and your parents arrive, uh, for a three month visit in 1994. And they were on a bit of a mission, weren't they?
[00:12:34] Vikram Vij: Yeah, 1994. Um, my parents come and I'm 30 years old. I had called up my dad and said I was ready to open up my own business. I'd been in the business for 10 years now. I'd been working hard, and I was like, I'm ready to open up something of my own. I'd worked for John Bishop and then, uh, They came and, uh, you know, as, as immigrant parents are and as parents are - not just immigrant parents, but as parents are - that everybody needs a helping hand.
[00:13:04] My father brought a little bit of cash from India and uh, basically gave it to me. And, um, so let's go and look for a restaurant. And we started looking for our restaurants and we started, you know, walking around and I mean, he didn't know Vancouver. I lived in Richmond. He didn't know Vancouver. And then I was working at nighttime at Bishop's and then one of the places we kind of like, but I wasn't sure whether I would a hundred percent like it.
[00:13:30] And, you know, I went to work and I came back and, you know, typical, my father, uh, had given this guy $32,000 in cash, a check. And taking the keys from him for his restaurant. And, and he gives me the key. I said, what is this? And he's like, well, I bought you the restaurant today.
[00:13:48] I was like, oh my God. It's like having, you know, like unwanted pregnancy. I was like, I am just, just, I was just having fun. I was not even quite serious. Right. And it was actually called Cafe Arabia. It was a Lebanese restaurant. And I had never cooked Lebanese food before. I had always cooked Indian food or French food. So for the first three months I was actually making falafels and tabhouli salads and hummus and stuff like that.
[00:14:19] But I knew that I had the art of combining flavors together. I knew that in my heart of hearts I was able to put things together. And, uh, sure enough, one day. A food writer comes in and we used to close at eight, and you know what my breakaway point was? My breakaway cash point or break even point from a cash point of view was a hundred bucks a day.
[00:14:41] If I sold hundred dollars a day, I knew I was gonna survive. And some days I would do like $96, $97 in sales, and it would really hurt because I just didn't meet my quota. So I would go to the cash register and just ring in. Like $4, just to get that a hundred dollars hump just to, just to feel it.
[00:15:06] Mm-hmm. Uh, because emotionally that's what you do as entrepreneurs, you know, you, you, you need to play games with your own minds. Sure. At times. And, um, but you know, the food writer came in and, you know, they were looking for butter chicken and chicken tiki masala, and like that traditional Indian stuff. And I was like, I, I don't, I don't serve that.
[00:15:28] I didn't want to serve that. I said, everybody else serves it. What's the point of doing the same food over and over again? And I remember sitting down and, and she was about to leave and I said, I didn't know that time she was a food writer, to be honest with you. I just knew that she was a customer. Um, her name was Robin Wines from a small newspaper.
[00:15:47] And I remember, uh, telling her, I said, you know, just do me a favor. Just taste my food. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay for it, but at least give me the honor of tasting the food. Just put it in your mouth and tell me what you think. And she did, and she must have liked it. And she went away and she gave me a glowing review.
[00:16:08] And from the next day, my hundred became, you know, A hundred dollars of sales became $200 in sales. So I started doing really well. And then my parents had a, also another mission. I was single for a long time, and they were like, you need to find yourself a partner. And, uh, in the Indian, traditional, you know, my mom and my ex-wife now, but at that time, Meeru's mum, You know, they were good friends in India and, uh, they started talking and my mom said to Meeru's mom that I have a loser son.
[00:16:46] You know, he, he just can't seem to meet a woman and just can't keep anybody happy. And they, they started talking and my mom told me to talk to her on the phone and I was like, mom, she lives in Washington, DC there's no way I'm going to talk to her. But again, you know, because my parents were here from India for three months.
[00:17:05] I just wanted to be that good boy, and I was on good behavior and I of course had talked to her and as soon as we started talking, we hit it off really well, really well. And we were talking about a book called The Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, and we started talking about the book and she had read it and I had read it, and she was an avid reader.
[00:17:27] And one thing led to the other, and then I asked her, I said, look, I don't have any money to come to Washington DC to be honest with you. I don't have any time to come to Washington dc I've just opened up this little restaurant of mine, my cafe, I called it. And she said, well, okay, I'll come. And because she was American, she didn't have a working visa.
[00:17:47] So she started working out in the, working in the kitchen with me, just hanging out, helping out, and we hung out mostly because. We only had one car and we lived so far away, so she had nothing to do so she would just hang out with me. Uh, but then we had a beautiful relationship and we still have a beautiful relationship.
[00:18:02] It fell apart, uh, 10 years ago, uh, because we were working together. But we still have a very beautiful relationship of work. Uh, and she still manages this kitchen and I do not want to take an ounce of credit away from her cuz she still runs the kitchen, uh, in the kitchen. With, uh, the, the staff members and some of the people that were dishwashers at that time are now like head chefs today in the kitchen.
[00:18:31] Tina Pittaway: That's wonderful. Now, in the beginning you had an approach of having kind of all female teams in your restaurants, and that is, is ...
[00:18:38] Vikram Vij: and that is still the case.
[00:18:39] Tina Pittaway: That's wonderful. What, what, what, uh, what propelled that?
[00:18:43] Vikram Vij: It just, it was just one of those things that, it's like a little village. You know? The women come, they know each other.
[00:18:49] They come from the same towns almost. They come from the same villages. Uh, they know each other. They are just, uh, they're just amazing women and they just work well together, and I, I never have to worry about it. I don't need to, I don't need to change something for the change of it. These are the same people that have come from the old villages to the, the new villages.
[00:19:10] And so I've not had a staff changeover in, I don't know, like 20 years almost. I mean, people have left because they got pregnant or they moved on and stuff, but other than that, it's been just the same.
[00:19:22] Tina Pittaway: And restaurant work is certainly a place where so many immigrants, uh, earn their living to begin with. And, and many make lifelong careers out of it as, as, as, as your staff has. But it's hard, hard work.
[00:19:36] Vikram Vij: The industry is tough because it's an entry level industry. It's not taken that seriously. Mm-hmm. Because, Cooking is something that you do from, whether you're from Vietnam or from uh, or from Cambodia or from Afghanistan.
[00:19:50] You, you have to cook. You have to eat. So that's the industry that most people get into first. And uh, it's an industry that pays you the least and it's one of the toughest industries because you're dealing with people. And so it's, it's, it's, that's why people open up mom, pop shops and businesses and restaurants and small ones because that's, that it just, it's a, it's a business for them to earn enough living cuz they don't have, there's a language barrier that they don't have, they haven't gotten the full education. So it's, it's extremely tough for them to earn that kind of money in order to get to it. So let's say if you're a doctor in Iran and you come over here, uh, you, you either drive taxi initially or you'll work in the restaurant or you go berry picking, or you'll do entry level jobs, which do not require full on certifications. And then if you have still the strength and the money, or the energy or, or the capacity, then you would go out and educate yourself to the level of, okay, I need to go to UBC and finish my education to become a doctor. So this industry is, is extremely, uh, compassionate on certain levels because it allows immigrants to come in and, and be okay.
[00:21:05] On the other hand, it, it takes a toll on, on you. You know, you give your formidable years earning that money, uh, in order to get that better education. And sometimes you just get burnt out from it. So it just depends. The reason why I don't feel burnt out is because I do love people. I've always loved people.
[00:21:24] Tina Pittaway: You also, uh, you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, uh, about your passion, uh, for wanting to become an actor when you were younger and, and, and there is a, a certain performative aspect to being, uh, uh, a chef. Certainly In terms of, uh, uh, in terms of at the level that you are, like you are a personality and you've, you've been a dragon on the Dragons' Den.
[00:21:46] You've taken part in Top Chef, Chopped Canada. How did you, um, how did, how did you come to be a part of those programs?
[00:21:55] Vikram Vij: So it's funny, you know, I told you in the history that my father never wanted me to become a stage actor or to become a performer. Mm-hmm. And it's so funny, after all these years, at the end of the day, I told him one day, not now, but recently, I told him, I said, Papa, for all your talk about, I should not become an actor, when that door opens at five 30 I am performing. Mm-hmm. I am on stage. I am welcoming people. I am doing exactly, uh, what you did not want me to do, because I, they're not just coming to eat my food. They're coming to look at Vikram Vij, they're coming to talk to me. They want to see my journey. That's, that's I, my narrative is, is, is stage acting and I said for all your talk about like, oh my God, no, no, no, no. I don't want my son to be a performer.. I am performing. And that is exactly what has happened. Chopped, same thing. I went for, uh, they asked for an audition. I went for an audition. They said, oh my God, we really love the way you talk. We really love the way you act. That become, that then became Recipe to Riches. Then Top Chef, and same thing with the Dragons.
[00:23:05] When they asked me to become a dragon, we were, a lot of people across the country that they were looking at, and to narrow it down to one person at the end, and then, you know, to stick to your conviction. So if you look at me on, on Dragons, then I'm wearing very Indian clothes.
[00:23:22] I'm wearing like shoes with no socks, and I'm wearing my Indian long and kin and everything else because I didn't wanna fake anymore. I didn't want to fake, I, I was true to myself. This is who I was and that's what I wanted to wear.
[00:23:36] Tina Pittaway: Can you talk to me a little bit about, uh, about your philosophy of food?
[00:23:42] Vikram Vij: Yeah. My philosophy is, uh, is. Be proud of your backyard. So if you have Okanagan that produces great wines and you have, uh, farmers that produce great produce, whatever you they produce, eat that food. You don't need to bring in caviar from Russia in order to be a great chef. Have what is in your backyard and support them.
[00:24:05] And so that's my philosophy. It's become local now. But think about it. I mean, if you look at it, we in Canada are a culinary destination. We have a ocean that produces beautiful seafood. We have farmers that produce great food, whether you're in Alberta that has corn, or you have chickpeas from Saskatchewan.
[00:24:26] Mm-hmm. We have great, great produce that comes from within our own country. We are a self-sufficient culinary hub. We are a culinary destination and we have it. So that's my philosophy.
[00:24:40] Tina Pittaway: There's also, um, uh, much more of an openness as far as, uh, being adventurous, uh, on the food scene. And Canadians, uh, have, have really, uh, you know, proven with their wallets that they, uh, that, that they're open to all sorts of, of experimentation. What is it about Canada, do you think that that underpins that?
[00:25:06] Vikram Vij: Well, I think one of the most beautiful thing about Canada is that it doesn't ask you to assimilate. It doesn't ask you to become a part of the melting pot. It allows you to be who you are. So I have nose rings, I have toe rings, I have piercings in wrong places, and I'm fine and I'm accepted, and I'm loved for who I am, and that is what can I embrace is freedom to be who you are and freedom to be able to express yourself.
[00:25:36] And that is why we must protect this democracy. We must protect people's rights and, and, and support each other. Including indigenous groups, including indigenous societies. We need to bridge this gap. We cannot be and cannot come across divided. And what Canada allows is it doesn't matter where you come from.
[00:26:00] It doesn't matter whether you come from Syria or from or from Afghanistan. You'll be given the same love and respect and equally treated. And that to me is the most fundamental aspect of it, because having faced prejudices, having faced and being told that I was the best East Indian cook in the kitchen, um, you come from it.
[00:26:23] That's why my kitchen has no hierarchy. There's no executive chef or sous chef or chef the party or demi cheff. It's, they're all cooks. They're all women who come in. They all have particular jobs. They break down, they do the job, and then they go home basically. And that's, that to me is, uh, quintessential.
[00:26:41] You know, it's been 28 years now. I mean, you know, the success rate of restaurants traditionally is, you know, if you five restaurants open today, five of them would fail, uh, within five years, or they'll change hands within five years. To have survived 28 years, like this is, uh, is a big honor and a big, uh, deal.
[00:27:02] And, uh, I'm humbled and, you know, last year getting Bib Gourmand Award. From, uh, Michelin Star guides. Our Michelin guide was another big feather in our hat because normally Indian restaurants don't get that kind of recognition. To be given a Bib Gourmand award was and is a big deal that way.
[00:27:20] Tina Pittaway: Absolutely. And, and that Michelin Bib award, uh, was awarded to Vij's last year, uh, on the heels of such a, a challenging time. Uh, COVID clearly, uh, devastated the restaurant industry and it it impacted your restaurants. How did, how did you navigate that?
[00:27:37] Vikram Vij: Well, first of all, we have to say a thank you to the governments of giving us funds to survive and giving us the wage subsidies and giving us the rent subsidies, because if it was not for that, we would've not survived.
[00:27:50] We would've all shut down. Uh, second of all, emotionally it was very tough because we don't open restaurants to be empty. So on a Saturday night at seven o'clock, if you had, you were just doing takeout, uh, it was very emotionally hurtful because your restaurant was sitting empty. You know, there's like two people working in the kitchen and doing takeout and one delivery and all that stuff.
[00:28:15] And, you know, even I was delivering at times and I would show up here to people's homes and people be like, Oh, you are not delivering. And I was like, well, yeah, because I'm so bored, I have nothing to do, so I'll just deliver. Because there was nothing to do. So that was, that was, uh, the, the tough part. The, the other tough part was, you know, emotionally to be able to not feed people knowing fully well that they need to be fed and there are people out there who are cooped up and couldn't come out.
[00:28:47] Mm-hmm. Was very tough. I think I have to say. The ones that actually did really well were the mom pop shops. That's that immigrant shop that was making the soup, that immigrant shop that was, uh, doing pizzas and, and small things. And they, they flourished and they flourished really well because people were doing takeout.
[00:29:07] So life is that, that ebb and flow of it, that sometimes you, you have a greatest time ever and you make a lot of money. And then on the other side is, um, that you have to just dig deep into your soul and say, how are you going to survive? And I think that teaches you to, uh, deal with things in life, you know, and whether it's war, or whether it's, uh, whether it's, um, anything else, you, you learn to deal with things and come and rise above it.
[00:29:41] Tina Pittaway: Vicram Vij spoke to me from Vancouver.
[00:29:47] If you'd like to hear more stories like this and help new listeners find our show, make sure to rate Countless Journeys on your favorite podcast app, or leave us a review. Countless Journeys comes to you from the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21, located at the Halifax Seaport.
[00:30:03] I'm Tina Pittway. Thanks for listening.